Re: Re: Copyright of lists

If someone has a bright idea, then (s)he should get a patent on it. Patents protect novel ideas (expressed as systems and methods) and things. Copyrights are not for ideas, no matter how bright. If there's nothing creative or original about the *expression* of the idea, then copyright is not available, nor should it be. This is pretty straightforward, so I don't understand what all the hyperventilation is about.

On 1/15/07, Webb, Jere <JMWEBB[_at_]stoel.com> wrote:
>
> I have always thought the "selection" part of "selection and
> arrangement" is a very interesting and troubling concept In the Feist
> case (which surprised most copyright lawyers by holding that the white
> pages of the phone book are not protectable), it didn't matter how much
> sweat of the brow the publisher put into "selecting" only real living
> individuals for the book. Take this example: you decide to publish a
> list of everyone in a city that has green hair. Many hours are made
> implementing this selection. Copyright protection? I don't think so.
> No creativity in the selection, although there might have been a lot of
> creativity in implementing the selection. I had a case once where
> someone copied verbatim several hundred pages of my clients government
> application for a license and filed it as a competing application. The
> application consisted mainly of maps that had been prepared from
> government (i.e. public domain) maps "selecting" certain features
> relevant to the license application. Copyright protection? I decided
> this was a close call and found the cases confusing. Another example:
> what if through sheer creative genius someone comes up with an algorithm
> to select from a database list a certain subset of data of interest to
> some particular group or industry. The result is then presented as an
> alphabetical list? Copyright protection? I'm not sure. What if I go
> thru my college yearbook and "select" everyone in my class by use of my
> amazing powers of recognition and then publish them in an alphetical
> list. Copyright protection? I don't think so. So what would be a
> protectible "selection" that results in an alphabetized list being
> protectible? I cant think of an example. Can anyone cite a relevant
> case? What if I come up with an incredibly creative parts numbering
> system for parts and I create a list of the parts by their numbers
> assigned? Protectible? No according to one court which observed that
> "clasifications schemes can in principle be creative enough to satisfy
> the creativity requirement for copyright protection" but that in the
> case before the court "all creative aspects of the classification are
> just that: ideas". The court said that the merger doctrine and the
> originality doctrine kill copyright protection for this sort of thing
> because "For almost all types of creativity claimed [by the plaintiff}
> there is only one reasonable way to expess the underlying idea". This
> latter point would doom many if not most creative selection cases.
>
> Jere
>
> Jere M. Webb
> Stoel Rives LLP
> Standard Insurance Building
> 900 SW Fifth Ave., Suite 2600
> Portland, OR 97204
>
> Phone: 503-294-9460
> Fax: 503-220-2480
> Email: jmwebb[_at_]stoel.com
>
> Secretary: Nancy Campbell
> Phone: 503-294-9316
> Email: nacampbell[_at_]stoel.com
>
> www.stoel.com
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CNI-COPYRIGHT -- Copyright & Intellectual Property
> [mailto:CNI-COPYRIGHT[_at_]cni.org] On Behalf Of jfnbl[_at_]earthlink.com
> Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 03:50 PM
> To: CNI-COPYRIGHT -- Copyright & Intellectual Property
> Subject: [CNI-(C)] Re: Copyright of lists
>
> IBD is entitled to "very thin" copyright protection for the selection
> and arrangement of its list of industry groups. In this case, the
> arrangement -- alphabetical -- is unoriginal, almost unavoidable, and
> undoubtedly unprotectible. The selection is another matter. The range
> of available choices for a taxonomy of industry groups is vast if not
> limitless. You say that "some of [your] names are similar but not the
> same," and "in a few cases [your] names and their names are the
> same." To the extent your example is representative -- 3 of 4
> identical, and the fourth a slight variation -- you are close to the
> virtually identical reproduction (right down to the use of a matching
> abbreviation, Bldg) that would be required to establish infringement
> of IBD's very thin copyright. You won't find it in the statute or the
> caselaw, but in the real world this kind of subjective judgment is
> often based on unstated equitable considerations. It strikes me that
> it would be impossible to have arrived at your taxonomy without
> having copied theirs -- for commercial advantage, with strategic
> alterations to avoid a charge of slavish copying. In other words, one
> gets the sense that you are trading on the good will associated with
> their industry group listing. If you are selling subscriptions to a
> service that substitutes for theirs at half the price, it calls to
> mind the knock-offs of Gucci purses sold by street vendors. No
> offense intended. Maybe your product is superior. But it smells like
> a knock-off. The "right" legal claim would be unfair competition,
> except that the Copyright Act probably preempts the unfair
> competition claim. If the Copyright Act's preemption provision
> deprives IBD of what would otherwise be a good state law claim, then
> the court is going to be inclined to find a remedy in the Copyright
> Act.
>
> Disclaimer: I'm not your lawyer, and you need one.
>
> John Noble
>
> At 4:05 PM -0500 9/1/07, HGS wrote:
> >My question is about copyright law regarding a list of titles.
> >
> >I am a small business owner. I use a list of industry group titles in
> my
> >business to classify stock market companies. The name of my industry
> group
> >list is "Industry Monitors 200". The name is not trademarked or
> >copyrighted. Here is a partial example of my list:
> >
> >Industry Monitors 200
> > Banking-Foreign
> > Banking-Midwest
> > Banking-West
> > Bldg-Hand Tools
> >
> >My Industry Monitors list has a total of 192 titles.
> >
> >Another company William O'Neil + Co. 197 Industry Groups (tm) also has
> a
> >list that they call the IBD 197 Industry Groups. IBD is "Investor's
> Business
> >Daily" a very large newspaper for investors.
> >
> >Here is a partial example of their list:
> >
> >IBD 197 Industry Groups
> > Banks-Foreign
> > Banks-Midwest
> > Banks-West/Southwest
> > Bldg-Hand Tools
> >
> >Some of my names are similar but not the same. In a few cases my names
> and
> >their names are the same. They have 197 industry groups, I have 192
> >industry groups.
> >
> >Is each name in their list copyrighted such that if I have the exact
> same
> >name in my list I will be violating their copyright? Does a list that
> looks
> >similar come under copyright protection?
> >
> >They have recently contacted me with this statement:
> >
> >The "HGSI Industry Group" list impermissibly copies from IBD's
> copyrighted
> >industry group list and violates IBD copyright" (HGSI is the acronym
> used
> >for my product and website HighGrowthStock Investor)
> >
> >Thank you for any assistance.
> >
> >Regards,
> >George Roberts
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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-- 
Vance R. Koven
Boston, MA USA
vrkoven[_at_]world.std.com